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Rory Sutherland is widely regarded as one of the most influential (and most entertaining) thinkers in marketing and behavioral science. He’s the vice chairman of Ogilvy UK, the author of Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life, and the founder of Nudgestock, the world’s biggest festival of behavioral science and creativity. He champions thinking from first principles and using human psychology—what he calls “thinking psycho-logically”—over mere logic. In our conversation, we cover:

• Why good products don’t always succeed, and bad ones don’t necessarily fail

• Why less functionality can sometimes be more valuable

• The importance of fame in building successful brands

• The importance of timing in product success

• The concept of “most advanced, yet acceptable”

• Why metrics-driven workplaces can be demotivating

• Lots of real-world case studies

• Much more

Listen now on Apple, Spotify, and YouTube.

Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/what-most-people-miss-about-marketing

Some takeaways:

1. When a product succeeds, we often forget the crucial role marketing played in its adoption. Rory even claimed that “Steve Jobs was not a technologist; he was a pitchman.” Many innovative products, from electricity to the internet, faced significant initial skepticism until marketing won consumers over.

2. Create space for unorthodox ideas. Remember: the opposite of a good idea can be another good idea. For example, both high-touch and no-touch hotel check-ins can be excellent experiences. We often act on the assumption that the world is linear, but it is often more complex than that. One helpful habit is to share logical ideas first and then create space for silly and crazy ones.

3. In certain contexts, behaving irrationally can be advantageous because it makes your actions less predictable and thus harder for others to exploit. This unpredictability can be a form of protection or strategic advantage.

4. When innovating, aim for “most advanced, yet acceptable” (MAYA). People generally prefer evolution over complete reinvention. However, maintaining some idiosyncrasies, or “the right amount of weird,” can create distinctiveness and interest. For example, Jaguar has a unique and memorable light switch and Veuve Clicquot has a defining yellow label.

5. Chase fame—it makes everything easier. Fame can be the difference between needing to do outreach versus leads coming to you, chasing people to take calls versus people always agreeing to chat, needing to pitch hires versus hires pitching you.

Where to find Rory Sutherland:

• X: https://x.com/rorysutherland

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rorysutherland

• Book: Alchemy: The Dark Art and Curious Science of Creating Magic in Brands, Business, and Life: https://www.amazon.com/Alchemy-Curious-Science-Creating-Business/dp/006238841X

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Rory’s background

(02:37) The success and failure of products

(04:08) Why the urge to appear serious can be a disaster in marketing 

(08:05) The role of distinctiveness in product design

(12:29) The MAYA principle

(15:50) How thinking irrationally can be advantageous

(17:40) The fault of multiple-choice tests

(21:31) Companies that have successfully implemented out-of-the-box thinking

(30:31) “Psycho-logical” thinking

(31:45) The hare and the dog metaphor 

(38:51) Marketing’s crucial role in product adoption

(49:21) The quirks of Google Glass

(55:44) Survivorship bias

(56:09) Balancing rational ideas with irrational ideas

(01:06:19) The rise and fall of tech innovations

(01:09:54) Consistency, distinctiveness, and clarity

(01:21:12) Considering psychological, technological, and economic factors in parallel

(01:23:35) Where to find Rory

Referenced:

• Google Glass: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Glass

• Meta Portal TV: https://www.meta.com/portal/products/portal-tv/

• Rory’s quote in a LinkedIn post: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/brad-jackson-04766642_the-urge-to-appear-serious-is-a-disaster-activity-7093497742710210560-1LYN/

• The MAYA Principle: Design for the Future, but Balance It with Your Users’ Present: https://www.interaction-design.org/literature/article/design-for-the-future-but-balance-it-with-your-users-present

• Ogilvy: https://www.ogilvy.com/

• MCI: https://www.mci.world/

• Veuve Clicquot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veuve_Clicquot

• Why do the French call the British ‘the roast beefs’?: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/2913151.stm

• The Killing on Hulu: https://www.hulu.com/series/the-killing-f5da5c2d-4626-4ba9-bcf3-ff5f891771fb

• Original The Killing on BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b017h7m1

• The Mandarin Oriental, Hong Kong: https://www.mandarinoriental.com/en/hong-kong/victoria-harbour

• SAT: https://satsuite.collegeboard.org/sat

• The Widening Racial Scoring Gap on the SAT College Admissions Test: https://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html

• What is the age of the captain?: https://www.icopilots.com/what-is-the-age-of-the-captain/

• Octopus Energy: https://octopus.energy/

• Kraken: https://octopusenergy.group/kraken-technologies

• Toby Shannan: https://theorg.com/org/shopify/org-chart/toby-shannan

• Dunbar’s number: Why we can only maintain 150 relationships: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20191001-dunbars-number-why-we-can-only-maintain-150-relationships

• AO: https://ao.com/

• Zappos: https://www.zappos.com/

• Joe Cano on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joeycano/

• John Ralston Saul’s website: https://www.johnralstonsaul.com/

• Voltaire’s Bastards: The Dictatorship of Reason in the West: https://www.amazon.com/Voltaires-Bastards-Dictatorship-Reason-West/dp/0679748199

• Psycho-Logic: Why Too Much Logic Deters Magic: https://coffeeandjunk.com/psycho-logic/

• Herbert Simon’s Decision-Making Approach: https://bura.brunel.ac.uk/bitstream/2438/4995/1/Fulltext.pdf

• Robert Trivers’s website: https://roberttrivers.com/Welcome.html

• Crazy Ivan: https://jollycontrarian.com/index.php?title=Crazy_Ivan

• The Joys of Being a Late Tech Adopter: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/28/technology/personaltech/joys-late-tech-adopter.html

• Jean-Claude Van Damme: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Claude_Van_Damme

• Tim Berners-Lee: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Berners-Lee

• Edward Jenner and the history of smallpox and vaccination: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1200696/

• The real story behind penicillin: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/the-real-story-behind-the-worlds-first-antibiotic

• What Are Japanese Toilets?: https://www.bigbathroomshop.co.uk/info/blog/japanese-toilets/

• reMarkable: https://remarkable.com/

• Chumby: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chumby

• Survivorship bias: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

• Jony Ive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jony_Ive

• Marc Newson’s website: https://marc-newson.com/

• Designing Men: https://www.vanityfair.com/news/business/2013/11/jony-ive-marc-newson-design-auction

• Qantas A330: https://marc-newson.com/qantas-a330/

• Herodotus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus

• Big Decision? Consider It Both Drunk and Sober: https://www.forbes.com/sites/chunkamui/2016/03/22/wine-and-sleep-make-for-better-decisions/?sh=5c97fdc524b1

• How Henry Ford and Thomas Edison killed the electric car: https://www.speakev.com/threads/how-henry-ford-and-thomas-edison-killed-the-electric-car.4270/

• Watch Jay Leno get nostalgic and swoon over this 1909 EV: https://thenextweb.com/news/jay-leno-talk-about-electric-car-1909-baker

• Jay Leno’s Garage: https://www.youtube.com/@jaylenosgarage

• Nudgestock: https://nudgestock.com/

• Akio Morita: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akio_Morita

• Don Norman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donnorman/

• What Makes Tesla’s Business Model Different: https://www.investopedia.com/articles/active-trading/072115/what-makes-teslas-business-model-different.asp

• Monica Lewinsky on X: https://x.com/MonicaLewinsky

• Blindsight: The (Mostly) Hidden Ways Marketing Reshapes Our Brains: azon.com/Blindsight-Mostly-Hidden-Marketing-Reshapes-ebook/dp/B07ZKZ5DWF

• Branding That Means Business: https://www.amazon.com/Branding-that-Means-Business-Economist-ebook/dp/B09QBCCH9N

• PwC: https://www.pwc.com

• Ryanair: https://www.ryanair.com

• British Airways: https://www.britishairways.com/

• Wrigley’s began as a soap business: know when to pivot: https://theamericangenius.com/entrepreneur/wrigleys-began-as-soap-know-when-to-pivot/

• Transport for Humans: https://www.amazon.com/Transport-Humans-Perspectives-Pete-Dyson/dp/1913019357

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.