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Camille Fournier is the author of The Manager’s Path, which many consider the definitive guide for navigating one’s career path in tech. Camille was previously the CTO of Rent the Runway, VP of Technology at Goldman Sachs, Head of Platform Engineering at Two Sigma, and Global Head of Engineering and Architecture at JPMorgan Chase. She is about to release new newest book, Platform Engineering: A Guide for Technical, Product, and People Leaders. In our conversation, we discuss:

• What product managers do that annoys engineers

• Why major rewrites are a trap

• Why you should have fewer one-on-ones

• Strategies for organizing and working with platform teams

• Tips for new managers

• Advice for transitioning from individual contributor to manager

• Much more

Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/engineering-leadership-camille-fournier

Some takeaways:

1. PMs can avoid annoying engineers by:

   1. Ensuring that engineers receive recognition for their contributions: Publicly recognize and credit engineers for their contributions to product successes. Go beyond just thanking them; let them take the lead in presenting their work and achievements. This fosters a culture of appreciation and motivation within the team.

   2. Understanding and caring about technical details: Take time to learn about the technical aspects of projects. Even a basic understanding shows respect for the complexity of the work and helps facilitate better communication and decision-making.

   3. Avoiding playing “telephone” between engineers and stakeholders: If you find yourself acting as a middleman too frequently, consider connecting engineers directly with relevant stakeholders. This reduces the risk of miscommunication and ensures that technical concerns and insights are addressed in real time.

   4. Including engineers in ideation and creative processes: Actively involve engineers in brainstorming sessions and planning stages. Encourage them to share their ideas and feedback early on to foster a collaborative environment and keep them engaged in the product development process.

2. Engineers often feel tempted to propose large-scale rewrites when frustrated by outdated, complex systems. However, rewriting the internal system can be deceptively complex, requiring substantial time and resources to migrate data and potentially delaying other crucial work. Before deciding to rebuild, consider whether the issue affects everyone or just engineers. Legacy systems, despite their flaws, often have significant functionality and thoughtful design built over time and have been adapted to handle various situations. A complete overhaul is a major undertaking that might not always be necessary.

3. If you’re considering transitioning from engineering to management, aim to gain substantial technical expertise first. Spending around 10 years or having significant hands-on experience in your technical field can help you maintain credibility and confidence in your technical skills.

4. Often, new managers expect to have the same level of freedom—or more—as they did in their specialist days. But the overlooked reality of a leadership position means that other people own your time. You’re serving your team and company, and this means you often aren’t making all the decisions. Instead, you’re there to nudge, direct, and encourage your team. Don’t expect management to be a leisurely time of freedom—it’s about greater responsibility.

5. To build effective relationships with platform teams:

   1. Set clear, outcome-based goals for platform teams to ensure that their work aligns with improving productivity and solving key business problems.

   2. Make sure your platform teams include a mix of software engineers, operations engineers, and product managers. This balance is crucial for creating effective and cohesive internal platforms.

   3. Implement OKRs for platform teams that focus on measurable improvements such as reducing engineering cycle times or enhancing system reliability.

Where to find Camille Fournier:

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/camille-fournier-9011812/

• Website: https://skamille.medium.com/

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Camille’s background

(02:17) Common annoyances between PMs and engineers

(07:09) Avoiding the telephone game

(08:05) Hoarding ideas and over-engineering

(09:55) The importance of involving engineers in ideation

(11:37) The middle-person dilemma

(14:21) Rewriting systems: a big trap?

(20:40) Engineering leadership lessons

(36:02) Moving from IC to management

(40:32) One-on-one meetings

(45:10) Pushing beyond comfort zones

(45:27) Building a balanced work culture

(48:01) Effective time management strategies

(54:15) Advice for platform team success

(01:02:42) Platform team responsibilities 

(01:04:43) When to form a platform team

(01:07:02) Thriving on a platform team

(01:12:48) AI corner

(01:17:03) Lightning round and final thoughts

Referenced:

• Platform Engineering: A Guide for Technical, Product, and People Leaders: https://www.amazon.com/Platform-Engineering-Technical-Product-Leaders/dp/1098153642/

• The Manager’s Path: A Guide for Tech Leaders Navigating Growth and Change: https://www.amazon.com/Managers-Path-Leaders-Navigating-Growth/dp/1491973897

• 97 Things Every Engineering Manager Should Know: Collective Wisdom from the Experts: https://www.amazon.com/Things-Every-Engineering-Manager-Should/dp/1492050903

• Avoiding the Rewrite Trap: https://skamille.medium.com/avoiding-the-rewrite-trap-b1283b8dd39e

• Levelsio on X: https://x.com/levelsio

• Pieter Levels on the Lex Fridman Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFtjKbXKqbg

• GraphQL: https://graphql.org/

• New Blue Sun by André 3000 on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/album/33Ek6daAL3oXyQIV1uoItD

• Musk’s 5 Steps to Cut Internal Bureaucracy at Tesla and SpaceX: https://icecreates.com/insight/musk-s-5-steps-to-cut-internal-bureaucracy-at-tesla-and-spacex-you-may-say-it-s-his-algorithm/

• Ian Nowland on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/inowland/

• Studio Pulls ‘Megalopolis’ Trailer Using Fake Quotes from Famed Movie Critics: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/studio-pulls-megalopolis-trailer-using-fake-quotes-from-famed-movie-critics_n_66c74046e4b0f1ca469413c7

• Claude 2: https://www.anthropic.com/news/claude-2

• What Got You Here Won’t Get You There: How Successful People Become Even More Successful: https://www.amazon.com/What-Got-Here-Wont-There/dp/1401301304

• When Things Fall Apart: Heart Advice for Difficult Times: https://www.amazon.com/When-Things-Fall-Apart-Difficult/dp/1611803438

• Alien: Romulus: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt18412256/

• Whoop: https://www.whoop.com

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.