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Alistair Croll is the co-author of the best-selling book Lean Analytics and a longtime product manager, entrepreneur, and startup advisor. He was also instrumental in my starting a company, funding it, and helping us exit to Airbnb as part of his Year One Labs incubator. He’s chaired notable events such as O’Reilly’s Strata and UBM’s Cloud Connect and founded FWD50. In our conversation, we focus on lessons from an upcoming book by Alistair and his co-author, Emily Ross, Just Evil Enough, which is set for release in late 2024. We cover:

• The importance of subversive marketing strategies in most startups’ growth

• 11 specific subversive tactics that successful companies have used

• Examples of companies like Netflix, Airbnb, and Tesla that used clever tactics early on

• A framework for scanning your market for opportunities

• The importance of finding your “zero-day marketing exploit”

• How to apply these tactics ethically without actually being evil

• Much more

Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/just-evil-enough-alistair-croll

Some takeaways:

1. Most startups focus too much on product features and not enough on distribution and go-to-market strategy. To succeed, you need to find an “unfair advantage” in how you capture attention and turn it into profitable demand. This is what Alistair and Emily call “just evil enough.”

2. Stop relying on generic growth hacks. Instead, adopt a mindset focused on “zero day” marketing exploits—innovative, subversive tactics that are only now possible. Look for unconventional methods to change the game in your favor.

3. Encourage your team to embrace “disagreeable” thinking, where you challenge the status quo rather than following the herd. For example, aim for your ideas to elicit at least 50% disapproval—this can be a great indicator that you’re pushing boundaries and generating true interest. If everyone loves your idea, it might be too safe.

4. Alistair outlines 11 key tactics to grab people’s attention:

   1. Turning bugs into features (e.g. Salesforce positioning their limited feature set as simplicity)

   2. Buyer upgrade (e.g. selling to insurance companies instead of city councils for bridge inspections)

   3. Access (e.g. Bumble’s founder leveraging her sorority connections for initial growth)

   4. Bait and switch (e.g. Tupperware using dinner parties to sell products in postwar America)

   5. Combination (e.g. Kraft combining powdered cheese with macaroni or 1-800 Mattress including mattress removal with a mattress purchase)

   6. Arbitrage (e.g. early social media growth hacks using API data)

   7. Aggregation (e.g. Busbud aggregating bus schedules to become the default destination)

   8. Reframing (e.g. Tom’s of Maine positioning toothpaste as natural/unfluoridated)

   9. Regulation (e.g. organ donor opt-out vs. opt-in policies in Germany vs. Austria)

   10. Misappropriation (e.g. Netflix using the postal service as a high-latency network)

   11. Sliding the window (e.g. normalizing previously taboo topics or behaviors)

5. To apply these tactics:

   1. Spend time understanding your industry’s system and status quo

   2. Temporarily think like a “supervillain” to brainstorm novel approaches

   3. Use techniques like pre-mortems, counterfactuals, and embracing absurdity

   4. Look for ways to change your value chain or industry dynamics

Where to find Alistair Croll:

• X: https://x.com/acroll

• Threads: https://www.threads.net/@alistairish

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alistaircroll/

• Website: https://justevilenough.com/

• Substack: https://acroll.substack.com/

• Just Evil Enough on X: https://x.com/evilenough

• Just Evil Enough on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/just-evil-enough/

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Alistair’s background 

(02:00) The story behind Alistair and Emily’s book Just Evil Enough

(06:17) Examples of subversive tactics

(07:43) The importance of unfair advantage

(10:36) The origin of the title “Just Evil Enough”

(14:24) System awareness and novelty

(19:16) How to use this thinking successfully 

(22:37) Normalizing disagreeable thinking 

(25:49) Recon canvas and market scanning

(32:43) 11 tactics for subversive marketing

(57:01) Implementing subversive strategies

(01:05:01) Ethical considerations in marketing

(01:08:19) Lightning round

Referenced:

• Just Evil Enough: https://justevilenough.com/the-book/

• Lean Analytics: Use Data to Build a Better Startup Faster: https://www.amazon.com/Lean-Analytics-Better-Startup-Faster/dp/1449335675

• A Look Back at Why Blockbuster Really Failed and Why It Didn’t Have To: https://www.forbes.com/sites/gregsatell/2014/09/05/a-look-back-at-why-blockbuster-really-failed-and-why-it-didnt-have-to/

• The top shelf strategy: https://justevilenough.com/the-top-shelf-strategy/

• Bumble: https://bumble.com/en-us/

• How Dropbox grew 1,300% in 15 months through a simple referral program: https://medium.com/@sunilmehta_12892/how-dropbox-grew-1300-in-15-months-through-a-simple-referral-program-c83a73277dc6

• “Spanish Train” by Chris de Burgh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRIr6HVgXp4

• Year One Labs: A Look Back: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/year-one-labs-look-back-raymond-luk/

• Ben Yoskovitz on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/byosko/

• The Lean Startup: How Today’s Entrepreneurs Use Continuous Innovation to Create Radically Successful Businesses: https://www.amazon.com/Lean-Startup-Entrepreneurs-Continuous-Innovation/dp/0670921602

• Why did Airbnb just buy Localmind? Local expertise: https://venturebeat.com/entrepreneur/airbnb-acquires-localmind/

• Lessons on building product sense, navigating AI, optimizing the first mile, and making it through the messy middle | Scott Belsky (Adobe, Behance): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/lessons-on-building-product-sense

• Behance: https://www.behance.net/

• Tina Seelig on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tinaseelig/

• How Did These Stanford Students Turn $5 into $650 in Just 2 Hours? They Used the Power of First Principles, and So Can You: https://www.inc.com/jeff-haden/first-principles-stanford-tina-seelig-problem-solving.html

• Gymshark: https://www.gymshark.com/

• Gymshark launches fake birthday campaign to get shoppers’ attention before Black Friday: https://www.theindustry.fashion/gymshark-launches-fake-birthday-campaign-to-get-shoppers-attention-before-black-friday/

• The Spy Who Sprayed Me: UK Intelligence Agency Uses Graffiti to Recruit Techies: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/spy-who-sprayed-me-uk-intelligence-agency-uses-graffiti-tom-ireland/

• Coinbase’s bouncing QR code Super Bowl ad was so popular it crashed the app: https://www.theverge.com/2022/2/13/22932397/coinbases-qr-code-super-bowl-ad-app-crash

• Ikea: https://www.ikea.com/us/en/

• At Work, Expertise Is Falling Out of Favor: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/07/future-of-work-expertise-navy/590647/

• Zach Hambrick on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zach-hambrick-2085728/

• When Bread Breaks Arms: https://nowiknow.com/when-bread-breaks-arms/

• Improve strategy, influence, and decision-making by understanding your brain | Evan LaPointe (founder of CORE Sciences): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/understanding-your-brain-evan-lapointe

• What most people miss about marketing | Rory Sutherland (Vice Chairman of Ogilvy UK, author): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/what-most-people-miss-about-marketing

• How Restaurants Trick You into Buying Wine: https://www.tiktok.com/@_lets.talk.money/video/7333999012003007776

• Runway: https://runwayml.com/

• Tim O’Reilly on X: https://x.com/timoreilly

• Om Malik on X: https://x.com/om

• Eric Ries on X: https://x.com/ericries

• Behind the scenes of a book launch: https://leananalyticsbook.com/behind-the-scenes-of-a-book-launch/

• Liquid Death: https://liquiddeath.com/

• Ghengis Khan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan

• Nevil Maskelyne: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevil_Maskelyne

• Billy Butlin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Butlin

• Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/

• Vantiv: https://staxpayments.com/blog/vantiv-worldpay-by-fis/

• Mr. Clean Magic Eraser: https://www.mrclean.com/en-us/shop-products?filters=Magic+Erasers

• The 46-year-old sex toy Hitachi won’t talk about: https://www.engadget.com/2014-08-27-history-of-the-hitachi-magic-wand.html

• Coradiant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coradiant

• Jessica Scorpio on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessicascorpio/

• Getaround: https://getaround.com

• Masterclass: https://www.masterclass.com/

• Energage: https://www.energage.com/

• Recon canvas: https://justevilenough.com/the_recon_canvas/

• How Kraft Macaroni & Cheese was invented and became the #1 dinner: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbhDkh1hOnM

• The Root of All Evil—Talking Money with Wall Street Wolf Rob Passarella: https://justevilenough.com/the-root-of-all-evil-talking-money-with-wall-street-wolf-rob-passarella/

• Mass market, mystery boxes and metric-driven design: The legacy of FarmVille: https://www.gamesindustry.biz/mass-market-mystery-boxes-and-metric-driven-design-the-legacy-of-farmville

• Busbud: Building a Data Company: https://hbsp.harvard.edu/product/118011-PDF-ENG

• LP Maurice on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lmaurice/

• A step-by-step guide to crafting a sales pitch that wins | April Dunford (author of Obviously Awesome and Sales Pitch): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/a-step-by-step-guide-to-crafting

• Will & Grace: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_%26_Grace

• Periods Are Normal, Says First U.K. Commercial to Use Red Liquid on a Pad: https://www.newsweek.com/periods-are-normal-says-first-uk-commercial-use-red-liquid-pad-688699

• The Blair Witch Project: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blair_Witch_Project

• Startupfest: https://www.startupfest.com/

• Persuasive communication and managing up | Wes Kao (Maven, Seth Godin, Section4): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/persuasive-communication-wes-kao

• Wes Kao’s Spiky Point of View: https://www.weskao.com/blog/spiky-point-of-view-lets-get-a-little-controversial

• Phil Telio on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/telio

• Maven: https://maven.com/

• Gagan Biyani on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gaganbiyani/

• The Morbid War over Online Obituaries: https://www.wired.com/story/morbid-war-online-obituaries/

• PT Cruiser: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_PT_Cruiser

• Occam’s razor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

• Emily Ross on X: https://x.com/emilyjaneross

• Emily Ross on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emilyrossonline/

• The Unaccountability Machine: https://www.amazon.com/Unaccountability-Machine-Dan-Davies/dp/1788169549/

• The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion: https://www.amazon.com/Righteous-Mind-Divided-Politics-Religion/dp/0307455777

• Made to Stick: Why Some Ideas Survive and Others Die: https://www.amazon.com/Made-Stick-Ideas-Survive-Others/dp/1400064287

• The Killer on Netflix: https://www.netflix.com/title/80234448

• Laptop screen extender: https://www.amazon.com/KEFEYA-Extender-Monitor-Portable-Laptops/dp/B0CFKLK9JY

• Anker: https://www.anker.com/

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.