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Farhan Thawar is the head of engineering at Shopify, where he oversees more than 1,000 engineers and a platform that powers over 10% of all U.S. e-commerce. Before Shopify, he was VP of engineering at Pivotal Labs and Xtreme Labs, and co-founder of Helpful.com. In our conversation, Farhan shares:

• Why choosing the harder path leads to better outcomes

• How to create intensity within your org (without burnout)

• Why every company should be embracing pair programming

• How he hires without interviewing

• How he built the world’s largest internship program

• His mission to create a “crafter’s paradise” for engineers

• Much more

Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-shopify-builds-a-high-intensity-culture-farhan-thawar

Some takeaways:

1. Get comfortable with looking dumb, especially in public. The best way to learn is by asking dumb questions, trying new things, and failing in front of others. You’ll uncover truths that others won’t, and more often than not, you’re not alone in having those questions. Everyone else is just too scared to ask.

2. Pair programming is a secret weapon. If you’re not doing this yet, try implementing it in your team’s workflow. It doesn’t just improve code quality; it forces intense collaboration and leads to faster unblocking.

3. Weekly updates, even if they seem like a time investment, create momentum and urgency. Parkinson’s law is real—if you set a time limit for something, it will get done in that time. Regular reviews force you to keep things moving forward, identify roadblocks early, and correct course quickly.

4. Time spent eliminating unnecessary code is never wasted. A streamlined codebase is easier to understand, less error-prone, and quicker to navigate. Make it a habit to revisit and refactor regularly, cutting away complexity. In software development, simplicity often leads to faster, more reliable results.

5. Traditional interviews are poor predictors of success. Instead:

   1. Use extended trials when possible

   2. Focus on real work product over interview performance

   3. Look at why candidates made career moves, not just what moves they made

   4. Leverage internship programs as extended interviews

   5. Make the interview process as close to the actual job as possible

Where to find Farhan Thawar:

• X: https://x.com/fnthawar

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/fnthawar

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Farhan’s background

(05:38) Choosing the hard path

(09:37) Getting comfortable with looking dumb

(13:20) Lessons from working with visionaries

(19:19) Creating intensity in organizations

(22:06) The power of pair programming

(29:18) Shopify’s culture of intensity

(37:18) Meeting Armageddon: revolutionizing company meetings

(39:46) Reducing distractions

(41:10) Deleting 1M+ lines of code

(49:05) Three buckets of building

(57:45) Remote work and trust battery

(01:00:29) Finding stability in uncomfortable times

(01:03:14) Hiring philosophy

(01:11:41) Internship programs and co-op systems

(01:15:32) Lessons from managing 120 direct reports

(01:20:40) Failure corner

(01:27:46) Lightning round and closing thoughts

Referenced:

• The Steve Jobs quote about connecting dots: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/463176-you-can-t-connect-the-dots-looking-forward-you-can-only

• Shopify: https://www.shopify.com/

• GitHub: https://github.com/

• Farhan’s “questions to ask” framework: https://x.com/fnthawar/status/1514193402828574721

• Palantir: https://www.palantir.com/

• Joe Liemandt: https://www.linkedin.com/in/liemandt

• Chamath Palihapitya: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamath_Palihapitiya

• Xtreme Labs: https://www.xtremelabs.io

• Parkinson’s law: https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-parkinsons-law-6674423

• Pair programming: https://dev.to/documatic/pair-programming-best-practices-and-tools-154j

• Cody Fauser on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/codyfauser

• How Shopify builds product: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/how-shopify-builds-product

• Chaos Monkey: We look at Shopify’s new ‘culture of focus’: https://www.siliconrepublic.com/careers/shopify-chaos-monkey-meetings-culture-deann-evans

• Empowering devs with AI: How Shopify made GitHub Copilot core to its culture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVKBwcm5dbw&t=2318s

• Tobi Lütke of Shopify: Powering a Team with a ‘Trust Battery’: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/24/business/tobi-lutke-of-shopify-powering-a-team-with-a-trust-battery.html

• Brian Chesky’s new playbook: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/brian-cheskys-contrarian-approach

• Stop Being Deceived by Interviews When You’re Hiring: https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesleadershipforum/2012/02/07/stop-being-deceived-by-interviews-when-youre-hiring/

• Shopify’s made the Life Story a major part of their interview: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39294140

• Internships at Shopify: https://internships.shopify.com

• Nick Adams on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nick-adams-32b28139

• React Native: https://reactnative.dev

• Swift: https://www.swift.org

• Acquired podcast: The Mark Zuckerberg interview: https://www.acquired.fm/episodes/the-mark-zuckerberg-interview

• The Power of Performance Reviews: Use This System to Become a Better Manager: https://review.firstround.com/the-power-of-performance-reviews-use-this-system-to-become-a-better-manager

• Airbnb’s Vlad Loktev on embracing chaos, inquiry over advocacy, poking the bear, and “impact, impact, impact” (Partner at Index Ventures, Airbnb GM/VP Product): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/impact-impact-impact-vlad-loktev

• The Secret to a Great Planning Process—Lessons from Airbnb and Eventbrite: https://review.firstround.com/the-secret-to-a-great-planning-process-lessons-from-airbnb-and-eventbrite

• How to do great work: https://www.paulgraham.com/greatwork.html

• Challengers on Prime: https://www.amazon.com/Challengers-Luca-Guadagnino/dp/B0CX5MZ9M4

• Halt and Catch Fire on Prime: https://www.amazon.com/Halt-Catch-Fire-Season-1/dp/B0CKXZNT96

• Meta Ray-Bans: https://www.meta.com/smart-glasses/shop-all

• Making Meta | Andrew ‘Boz’ Bosworth (CTO): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/making-meta-andrew-boz-bosworth-cto

Recommended books:

• The Undoing Project: A Friendship That Changed Our Minds: https://www.amazon.com/Undoing-Project-Friendship-Changed-Minds/dp/0393254593

• Range: Why Generalists Triumph in a Specialized World: https://www.amazon.com/Range-Generalists-Triumph-Specialized-World/dp/0735214484

• Manna: Two Visions of Humanity’s Future: https://www.amazon.com/Manna-Two-Visions-Humanitys-Future-ebook/dp/B007HQH67U

• Business Adventures: Twelve Classic Tales from the World of Wall Street: https://www.amazon.com/Business-Adventures-Twelve-Classic-Street/dp/1504000021

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.