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Melissa Perri is the founder of Product Institute, author of Escaping the Build Trap, and host of the Product Thinking Podcast. She has worked with startups, Fortune 50 companies, and everything in between to help them build better products and level up their product teams. In our conversation, we discuss:

• The history of the product owner role

• The differences between product owners and product managers

• How to transition from product owner to product manager

• The evolution of and problems with the SAFe framework

• How large non-tech companies can improve their product practices

• Much more

Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/product-owners-melissa-perri

Some takeaways:

1. The product owner role is rooted in Scrum, not traditional product management. It was established by software developers to assist with task prioritization rather than complete product oversight.

2. Don’t just turn your product owners into order-takers. Empower them to engage in discovery, customer conversations, and prioritization. Make sure they’re not bogged down by an endless backlog of user stories that don’t contribute to real value. If your product owner is spending 40 hours a week writing user stories for things that are already working, you have a problem.

3. If you’re already talking to your team daily and breaking down tasks collaboratively, great! You probably don’t need a rigid Scrum framework. Instead, focus on what works for your team, whether that’s weekly sprints or daily check-ins. The key is to keep the lines of communication open and ensure that everyone is aligned on priorities without unnecessary meetings.

4. Look for organizations that offer real training and mentorship, not just surface-level certifications. The best environments for growth are those where you can learn from experienced product managers and apply that knowledge practically.

Where to find Melissa Perri:

• X: https://twitter.com/lissijean

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissajeanperri/

• Website: https://melissaperri.com/

• Product Institute: https://productinstitute.com/

• Podcast: https://www.produxlabs.com/product-thinking

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Melissa’s background

(02:12) The rise of the product owner role

(06:37) Understanding Agile and Scrum

(08:27) Challenges in Agile transformations

(10:41) The history of the product owner role

(13:58) The Scrum Guide

(15:43)  Product owner responsibilities

(21:01) Adopting Scrum in organizations

(26:21) The origins and implementation of SAFe

(35:20) Why Melissa doesn’t recommend SAFe

(40:33) Advice for implementing a digital transformation 

(49:12) An example of SAFe adoption 

(51:27) The value of experienced product leaders

(56:53) Career paths for product owners

(01:04:14) Transitioning from product owner to product manager

(01:06:41) Be careful relying on certifications

(01:11:43) Evaluating existing product owners

(01:16:55) Final thoughts on Agile and product management

Referenced:

• Escaping the Build Trap: How Effective Product Management Creates Real Value: https://www.amazon.com/Escaping-Build-Trap-Effective-Management/dp/149197379X

• Lean UX: https://leanuxnyc.co/

• Scrum: https://www.scrum.org/

• What is Extreme Programming? https://www.agilealliance.org/glossary/xp/

• Capital One: https://www.capitalone.com/

• The Agile Manifesto: https://www.atlassian.com/agile/manifesto

• Ken Schwaber on X: https://x.com/kschwaber

• Jeff Sutherland on X: https://x.com/jeffsutherland

• Kanban: https://www.atlassian.com/agile/kanban

• What is a kanban board?: https://www.atlassian.com/agile/kanban/boards

• Ron Jeffries’s website: https://www.ronjeffries.com/

• Jeff Patton on X: https://x.com/jeffpatton

• The Scrum Guide: https://www.scrum.org/resources/scrum-guide

• OpenSky: https://www.openskycc.com/

• SAFe: https://scaledagileframework.com/

• Dean Leffingwell on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/deanleffingwell/

• Capital One scraps 1,100 tech positions: https://www.reuters.com/technology/capital-one-scraps-1100-tech-positions-source-2023-01-19/

• Product management theater | Marty Cagan (Silicon Valley Product Group): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/product-management-theater-marty

• Marty Cagan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cagan/

• Jeff Gothelf on X: https://x.com/jboogie

• Shruti Patel on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shruti-patel-32bb573a/

• Product Thinking Podcast: Mastering Product Focus: Balancing Legacy and Innovation with Shruti Patel: https://www.produxlabs.com/product-thinking-blog/2024/9/25/episode-190-mastering-product-focus-balancing-legacy-and-innovation-with-shruti-patel

• Melissa Douros on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissadouros/

• Mind the Product: https://www.mindtheproduct.com/

• Athenahealth: https://www.athenahealth.com/

• McKinsey: https://www.mckinsey.com/

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.