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[Image description: Text ‘Authenticity Arena No. 14’ on a lilac background]

Listen now · 14:08

The audio recording (above) and transcript (below) represent 14 minutes of a 50-minute chat I had with ‘O’ who’s a bisexual/pansexual, Latino, cis man, who, at the time of interview in July 2022 was 45, living with a female nesting partner in Tucson, AZ, US, as two-thirds of an open triad, and also has a few other partners and additionally co-parents kids from a previous relationship.

‘O’ shared with me his experience of having sex with someone else for the first time, which happened, when he was 14, with a young woman who was 18. (Almaz note: ‘O’ describes the experience as wholly consensual, but in regards to the law in lots of US states, under 18s cannot consent to sex). Our chat also covered the initial guilt that ‘O’ felt when he started doing sex stuff with men, and also the acceptance that came when he started reading lots of books on sexuality and relationship styles.

Almaz note: Please do listen to the audio extract, while simultaneously following the text transcription, as it makes for a richer experience.

Almaz – 12:14mins
You wrote that the first time you had sex with someone else was when you were 14. Would you be able to describe the circumstances of that and whether it was enjoyable and a nice time?

‘O’ – 12:29mins
Sure. I think… So yeah, I was 14. It was in the middle of the day; my parents worked. And she was older than me. She was 18. And we had been, like, flirting and talking on the phone or whatever. But we weren’t, like, together.

Almaz – 12:51mins
Yeah.

‘O’ – 12:51mins
Like, we hadn’t… She wasn’t my girlfriend or anything. But we had been definitely been talking about doing it. And she was, again, she was 18. And I think, was, sort of, frustrated by the fact that she still hadn’t had sex, right. Like, everybody else around her was, and she hadn’t. And she was a friend of my brother’s, my older brother, and so we, sort of, decided to do this. And I remember I was just very nervous and, sort of, had the, like… There was just, like, performance anxiety. There was, just… but for the most part, it was, like, yes, it was enjoyable. Or at least, you know… she certainly…

We got married.

Almaz – 13:41mins
Oh wow!

‘O’ – 13:42mins
We were together for a long time after that.

Almaz – 13:44mins
Oh wow!

‘O’ – 13:44mins
Yeah. We, you know, we started dating when I was 14 and we divorced when I was 26/27.

Almaz – 13:52mins
Oh, a really long relationship!

‘O’ – 13:56mins
Yeah, yeah! [chuckles] And so we, sort of, a lot of the things that we learned and developed later, right came together in parallel. But at the time it was very… Yeah, like, she didn’t… I think she also was pretty nervous. She didn’t have an orgasm or anything. But I remember just, like, struggling to, sort of, perform and not fully knowing what to expect. And then I remember, sort of, being struck with… Like, I knew that that, like, bleeding was a possibility, but I think I was, like, really surprised by that in the aftermath. I’m just like, “Oh my gosh. It’s very different to…”, sort of, like, “read the book or, like, read the thing that’s like an explanation what’s going to happen and then actually have the thing happen.”

But, yeah, I think, overall, it was enjoyable. I think I remember…

I don’t know…

It’s an interesting thing to think about now being… Like, her being 18 and me being 14 and, like, if that… You know, just like, what are the implications of that?

Almaz – 15:24mins
Yeah.

‘O’ – 15:54mins
But at the time, I remember thinking, like, “This is good” and “I want this.” and “This certainly feels good and I want her to also enjoy it.” But yeah, just two very nervous young people.

Almaz – 15:39mins
Just a point about age and things. I’m actually going to be looking at age gaps, juvenile sexuality and things like that, because I really feel we’ve entered a time in society where there’s, like, hysteria around…

‘O’ – 15:58mins
 Sure.

Almaz – 15:58mins
…adolescents and young people having sex with people who are a bit older than them. And it’s almost like young people have been stripped of their sexual agency…

‘O’ – 16:09mins
Sure.

Almaz – 16:09mins
…because the age of consent around the world it’s different ages in different places. In the UK, it’s 16.

‘O’ – 16:19mins
Oh, Okay. Yeah.

Almaz – 16:19mins
In South Korea, it’s 20.

‘O’ – 16:24mins
Wow.

Almaz – 16:24mins
In Germany, it’s 14.

‘O’ – 16:25mins
Ah, yeah.

Almaz – 16:25mins
So therefore, it’s quite arbitrary, globally.

‘O’ – 16:25mins
For sure.

Almaz – 16:29mins
Of course, people need to be protected, but, then some people are ready to have sex a lot earlier than other people.

‘O’ – 16:37mins
Yeah.

Almaz – 16:37mins
And it really frustrates me when people are labeled as predators if they’ve had a sexual experience with someone who’s a teenager because I didn’t see it that way. At all.

‘O’ – 16:54mins
Yeah, I don’t think that there’s a… You know, I don’t think there’s a hard and fast rule and I certainly… Like you said it, right, it’s not only country-dependent, but it’s person-dependent and that, I think, gets lost. And I understand, right, it’s impossible to do a case-by-case basis on every situation, but I think the thing for me is just trying to be conscious of it at the time. Or at least, sort of, reflecting on it. And again, not saying one way or the other, but just reflecting on it from my perspective of, like, was it… Was I, you know, was there any, sort of, not necessarily predatory, but was… did the age or power…

Almaz – 17:35mins
Mmm.

‘O’ – 17:35mins
…or any of this dynamic come into it, and has that affected my relationships, you know. To this point, and I think, you know, in some ways, “yes”, in some ways, “no”, but I certainly wouldn’t say that. I think the law would argue, right, if, again, painting it with a broad brush, would say, “That’s not okay. That was a problem. That is predatory behavior.”

And whereas I can say, like, there’s much more nuance to it, and to… I certainly wouldn’t say that she was... You know, we don’t really have a relationship anymore, but, like, you know, for the most part, like, she was a good person.

She’s not, like… This is certainly not a pattern. There was nothing, like, this hadn’t happened before after and I certainly don’t blame her for it. I was, again, talking a big game of like, “Oh, yeah, I know what I’m doing. I got this.” And so I certainly don’t apply any blame to her. But yeah, it’s much more, I think, important for me to be able to reflect on it and say, you know, the whys and what’s and how’s, and, of just, like, “did this affect my later relationships” or whatever.

Almaz – 18:38mins
Yeah.

‘O’ – 18:38mins
I think that’s what’s important for me, personally.

Almaz – 18:39mins
Yeah. Yeah. And when you were dating and then got married, were you, umm… What’s the word? Was that the only sexual relationship that you two were engaged in for those eight, nine years?

‘O’ – 18:58mins
Umm. For me, it was not. For her, I don’t think so. But I don’t know. I, sort of, have, you know, I have ideas. I’m like, based on, sort of, the things that we have talked about since, you know, after the fact but, like, again, nothing specific. But yeah, I don’t think so. I don’t think we were the only people. I know she was not the only person, and I don’t think I was the only person that she slept with. For those… Again, that period.

Almaz – 19:33mins
Yeah. Okay, moving on to… Urm… Okay. Yes. The question about “have you ever taken steps to gain more of an insight into your sexuality?” You’ve written “Yes”. And then you put “books” and then you’ve “talked to my therapist.”…

‘O’ – 20:01mins
Sure. Okay.

Almaz – 20:01mins
… “I think I just opened up to possibilities and got rid of guilt.” Would you be able to speak a bit more about the kind of books that you read, that, kind of, opened you up a bit?

‘O’ – 20:15mins
For sure. Yeah, so I think, you know, I think the first thing for me, again, growing up with these two, sort of, mindsets of, like, being fear[ful], but also being very pragmatic about it, I think, came with this baggage of, like, assuming that all of this behaviour that you’re engaging in is heterosexual behaviour, right?

Almaz – 20:41mins
Yeah.

‘O’ – 20:41mins
Like and there was never a discussion, or engagement or possibility, or, like, world in which that behaviour would not be heterosexual. And so I think, you know, there was the first time that I had, sort of, like, any, sort of, sex with a man, or whatever… Like, it felt very, urm… It came with just a lot of guilt…

Almaz – 21:07mins
Mmm.

‘O’ – 21:07mins
…because, like, this is not, you know, I was not supposed to be doing this, like, it was just, like, very, very bad. And so I spent a lot of time just, like, sort of, reckoning with this. So that guilt and the shame that comes with that. And there was a lot of this, you know, I think the thing that I see now is people call it the “bi cycle”, which is like, “Oh, no, I’m 100% straight, I don’t know. And then, like, “oh, we are not 100% straight”. “Oh, nope, I’m 100% gay”, right like that… This thing that, like, swings back and forth of, like, not knowing where you fit, and not having the language to be able to say, “Oh, I not only can I be attracted to all genders”, right?

Like, I can just, like, “not only can be, allowed”, but it’s, like, “you can live your whole life like that”, like, “that’s totally okay”. And so, like, again, not having the language to, sort of, look in and, sort of, see that as, like, okay.

Or a normal thing that happens in the world [scoffs] was really challenging until, like, the books that I was reading was more just, like, again, very, like… There was, like, I don’t remember specifically what they were, but I just remember trying to seek out, like, experiences for folks who are gay and then, like, sexual stuff for people who are straight and, again, there didn’t seem to be this, like, middle ground of, like, “okay, well, is there space for both?”

But I think later, right, like, sort of, working through this shame and guilt and being, like, “oh, no, I can live my life like this. I can tell people.” And then later, you know, I did talk… I’ve spent a lot of time my therapist and, like, finally being open about it, sort of, became this… Just, like, learning that there are lots of people that feel this way.

Almaz – 23:06mins
Yeah.

‘O’ – 23:06mins
I’m not alone. And to, like, again, you can do this thing. And then the, sort of, thing that my therapist talked about that really brought it home was, like, people think of it as, like, a spectrum, or even a switch…

Almaz – 23:17mins
Mmm.

‘O’ – 23:17mins
…like, I’m attracted to men or I’m attracted to women and he’s like, “Well, you know, gender is a spectrum.” So, like, attraction to those genders must also be a spectrum. Like, you can be anywhere on this thing, but also there’s a another axis, right? It’s not just an ‘x’/‘y’ axis, there’s a ‘z’ axis and we can think of that as, like, time…

Almaz – 23:28mins
Yeah.

‘O’ – 23:39mins
Like, you can not only be attracted to genders closer to mine, or more attractive to genders that are different from yours. And that might fluctuate over time.

Almaz – 23:48mins
Yeah, yeah.

‘O’ – 23:48mins
And so that really opened it up. And I think more of the books that I have been reading lately are much more about relationship styles and then those talk about, like, sexuality specifically, and it’s much more like, “Okay, well, what does non-monogamy look like? What does relationship structures and styles look like? And how do we do those effectively with people of different genders” or whatever.

Almaz – 24:12mins
Mmm.

‘O’ – 24:12mins
Like, “How do we do that?” And so I think those are the types of things that I’m reading lately. But also, like, pleasure activism, right, like…

Almaz – 24:20mins
Yeah.

‘O’ – 24:20mins
I just have these books that are, like, that are much more, like, “you don’t owe people anything. You don’t owe people explanations”, like, you can, you know, “you can just do the things that you enjoy, regardless of how. And I don’t have to feel guilty for being interested, or wanting to do things” or whatever. Just being curious about things and… Or saying, like, “Hey, would you be open to trying something?”, like, all of these things come with so much baggage and they don’t have to…

Almaz – 24:49mins
Yeah.

‘O’ – 24:49mins
…Like, they can. You can make them, you know, like… This like… I think giving up these binaries have been super helpful for me in terms of, like, you can have emotions and sex, or you cannot. And both of those are valid and there is… Like, you can be anywhere on that spectrum…

Almaz – 25:08mins
Yeah.

‘O’ – 25:08mins
…and that can be true for, you know, how much pleasure you’re getting out of it, or what you’re getting out of it. Or all of these things. And I think that stuff has just been really helpful for me and I think the only way to… I guess you could do it online, but it just feels very, like, I guess I get frustrated with the discourse that happens around it, when sometimes I just want to read the thing.

Almaz – 25:33mins
Yeah!

‘O’ – 25:33mins
Like, I don’t want to read the thing, and then get to the comments and people are, like, “Oh no, this is all wrong because”…

Almaz – 25:37mins
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

‘O’ – 25:37mins
…and it’s, like, I don’t want to get to the comments and see that. I just want to, like, read the thing and be, like, “Okay, does this sit well with me?”, “Is this how it fits?”, “Is this not how it fits?”, “Okay, then what are the different perspectives?” Rather than just, like, “oh, no, this person’s an idiot.” You know what I mean?

Almaz – 25:52mins
Yeah.

‘O’ – 25:52mins
Like, it’s the discourse that bugs me, and I just want to read that thing.

Almaz – 25:55mins
I’ve noticed we’re very quick to reject things that don’t 100% align with where we’re at. And, like, especially on Twitter, like, people, like, reject something if it doesn’t align with their personal experience of something.

‘O’ – 26:15mins
Sure.

Almaz – 26:15mins
Where often we need time to, like, sit with new ideas and process them in relation to our other experiences.

‘O’ – 26:25mins
Sure.

[CONVERSATION CONTINUES FOR ANOTHER 20 MINUTES]

Here are links to other interviews where we’ve talked about juvenile sexuality and how sexual curiosity shows up in children and young people:

‘J’, 33, bisexual, Mixed-race (Indian and white British) woman (cis), single, Brighton:

#23: Authenticity Arena – No. 08 Almaz Ohene · September 7, 2022 Read full story

‘B’, 32, queer, Greek (Caucasian), woman (cis), partnered, London:

#14: Authenticity Arena – No. 01 Almaz Ohene · February 2, 2022 Read full story

[Image description: promo banner for Almaz’s Developing Sexual Expression and understanding intimacy workshops]

Throughout November I’m partnering with Oli Lipski (AKA ‘The Queer Sensualist’), a sex, relationships and intimacy coach to run my series of four workshop online via Zoom.

WORKSHOP DETAILS

Workshop 1: Writing Romance | Wednesday 8 November 2023 | 19:30–20:45 (GMT)

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Originally run as a dynamic hen-do activity ‘Writing Romance’ workshop has been specially developed with all levels of literary skills in mind.

• Perfect the art of storytelling by learning how to harness some of your own experiences, secrets, and fantasies to create engaging narratives

• Craft realistic characters with credible backstories, alongside developing entertaining (read, steamy) story arcs

• Six-page printable companion workbook outlining key storytelling techniques; including tips on sketching characters, plotting narratives, writing dialogue and avoiding (or subverting) common tropes

What peeps have said about ‘Writing Romance’:

“It was a great introduction and helped me to begin with my idea of writing erotic short stories, what I had in mind for so long time. I’m very grateful for the worksheet, which will help me to stay tuned with that idea. I would definitely recommend your workshop.” – Anna, online workshop participant

“What seemed like it could’ve been very awkward and embarrassing actually ended up being really fun, thought-provoking and exciting! Would definitely recommend to friends, it was so great to do something different!” – Jenny, hen party guest

Book now

Workshop 2: Cultivating Consent Culture | Wednesday 15 November 2023 | 19:30–20:45 (GMT)

[Image description: promo banner for ‘Cultivating Consent Culture’ workshop]

• Defining consent

• Tips on how to purposefully let your partner(s) know what you like, and what you don’t

• Practical advice on how to spot consent issues across different real-life situations

• Six-page printable companion workbook defining consent, listing examples of both verbal and non-verbal signs of consent and non-consent, exercises to practice purposefully verbalising pleasure, desires and boundaries

What peeps have said about ‘Cultivating Consent Culture’:

“It was great! I liked how open it was and people felt they could voice their thoughts in a safe space.” – Anon., online workshop participant

“The use of current material made it fresh and pointed to the reality of the topics currently being discussed widely at present.” – Anon., online workshop participant

Book now

Workshop 3: Improving Intimacy | Wednesday 22 November 2023 | 19:30–20:45 (GMT)

[Image description: promo banner for ‘Improving Intimacy Part I’ workshop]

• Pleasure and anatomy 101 – female-assigned bodies, male-assigned bodies, differences between biological sex and gender expression

• Tips for better and more purposeful communication

• Routes for experimenting with different elements of your sex life

• Eight-page printable companion workbook revising anatomy and pleasure points, help discovering erogenous zones and tips for introducing new sexual practices into your repertoire

What peeps have said about ‘Improving Intimacy Part I’:

“I really enjoyed the session and learnt a lot about female-assigned anatomy that I didn’t realise I didn’t know. I also really liked how diverse and inclusive the session was in terms of both anatomy shown and different identities.” – Anon., online workshop participant

“What I am very happy about is that from your workshop my partner and I had an hour-long chat about sex etc. It was really important and something we were both too scared to talk about. So the workshop was a massive success for us.” – Anon., online workshop participant

Book now

Workshop 4: Improving Intimacy Part II | Wednesday 29 November 2023 | 19:30–20:45 (GMT)

[Image description: promo banner for ‘Improving Intimacy Part II’ workshop]

• Learn how trust and clear communication can help push exciting sexual boundaries.

• Leaning into introspection and self-knowledge, discover your sexual potential

• Work up to sharing your explicit materials preferences and sexual bucket list with your partner(s).

• Six-page printable companion workbook with cut-out-and-keep ‘Sex Menu’, ethical pornography outlet recommendations for all genders and sex toy reviews and recommendations for all genders

What peeps have said about ‘Improving Intimacy Part II’:

“The workshop with Almaz was a perfect hen activity, especially for hens who might not want a butler in the buff but do want to add a little bit of naughty nudity. Almaz made us feel comfortable from the start and led a conversation about sex from a female lens which is often left out! It was a light-hearted but informative session about sex, pleasure and female empowerment.” – Anon. in-person hen party guest

“When I joined Almaz’s workshop, I felt welcomed into an environment where people were able to speak about sexual intimacy openly, honestly and with positivity. Just being present for that was a positive experience for me, let alone some of the unexpected things I learned about sex toys, indie porn sites and affiliate links!” – Anon., online workshop participant

Book now

[Image description: Text ‘POSTSCRIPT’]

The ‘POSTSCRIPT’ segment for paid subscribers will drop on Wednesday 25 October and will include the written answers that ‘O’ gave in response to my sexuality survey. To receive this extra mailout you’ll need to upgrade to a paid subscription, which is either billed monthly at £3.79 each month, or annually at £34.99 per year.

[Image description: Text ‘PRODUCED BY’]

I’m Almaz Ohene, a Creative Copywriter, Freelance Journalist and Accidental Sexpert.
Previous mailout: ‘#35: Tips for improving your physical relationship that don’t involve sex’

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This content is free, but it takes time to create and upload each piece, so if this project is something that you value, please consider becoming a paid subscriber of ‘She Dares to Say’, which is either billed monthly at £3.79 each month, or annually at £34.99 per year.

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