In this episode, we are joined by Eva, Director of The Graph Foundation, to discuss the current state and future of The Graph and the broader Web3 ecosystem. We explore key topics such as AI integration, decentralized data, and how The Graph is expanding its offerings for developers. We also touch on the challenges faced by the Web3 developer community, the role of the GRT token, and the impact of decentralized data in addressing misinformation and information bubbles.

The audio transcription was generated by GPT, so there may be some errors. Please listen to the full podcast:

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Brief Intro to Eva and The Graph

Ehan: Welcome to WuBlockchain Podcast. Today we have the pleasure of being joined by Eva, Director of The Graph Foundation. We will explore The Graph journey and its exciting innovations. Eva, welcome. Can you briefly introduce yourself and share the development history of The Graph?

Eva: Hi, thank you so much for having me. My name is Eva. As you mentioned, I’m originally from Canada, and I started my career in management consulting. I studied economics and was really interested in solving business problems as a method of learning. I always think of consulting as a kind of boot camp, especially when you’re young.

While I was working on payment initiatives for large banks in the US, I began learning about Ethereum and Web3. As I was learning about crypto, I realized that this technology was the solution these banks should be building on, but it was way too early at the time. So, I decided to leave consulting and join the Web3 space, particularly the Ethereum community. I’ve been here for about six years now, working on several different projects.

Eventually, I found The Graph, which felt like a long-term solution I could sink my teeth into. I’ve now been working with The Graph for over five years.

What is The Graph Foundation and your role there?

Ehan: And what can you tell us about The Graph Foundation and your role at the foundation?

Eva: Yeah, so The Graph is a decentralized ecosystem as much as we’re a decentralized network. The Graph is, in layman’s terms, providing access to Web3 data. We think of it as the “Google of blockchains,” where all data is indexed and queryable. So, anyone who wants to ask questions about what happens on-chain, or if they want to build applications based on that information, can do so easily with The Graph. We have something called a subgraph, which is a standardized API that allows you to query blockchain data from any chain using GraphQL. This is basically how we started with The Graph.

Upon launching the decentralized network, which allowed hundreds of indexers to start indexing data, we transitioned from being a centralized service. At the time of the network launch, we also launched The Graph Foundation. I was part of the original team that launched the network — there were only 16 of us. We recognized the need for another entity to bootstrap the ecosystem, stewarding it into initiatives related to governance, grants, and growth. So, the foundation has been leading the efforts to expand the community, enable funding for different projects, and foster ecosystem development.

We engage with the community, understanding their needs across the tech stack. This includes both non-technical community members, as well as indexing and subgraph developers, to ensure all aspects of the ecosystem are thriving. The Graph Foundation continues to focus on governance, growth, managing the treasury, and supporting the core development teams. However, we are also very focused on identifying the next level of needs for the Web3 ecosystem.

The subgraph and The Graph toolkit solve a very specific problem that developers face: how to get blockchain data for decentralized applications (dApps). The Graph makes this easy using a subgraph. But now, we’re expanding our view of the problem set in Web3. Instead of just focusing on APIs and hosting, we’re asking: how can we serve developers more holistically? What other problems do developers — both Web3 and Web2 — face when they try to build with blockchains?

One thing we’ve noticed is that many developers, including our own teams, are so accustomed to building applications in certain ways within the crypto space that we may not realize that the tech we’re building isn’t always conducive to the next wave of developers. So, we’re focusing on what expanding The Graph and Web3 looks like, so we can “grow the pie” and bring more developers into the space.

How would you explain The Graph and how its protocol works for beginners?

Ehan: For those unfamiliar with The Graph, how would you explain what it is and how the protocol works?

Eva: Great question. So, as I mentioned, we like to call ourselves the “Google of blockchains.” With that framing, you can think of us as the indexer, the data provider — the machine in the backend that formulates answers and queries to provide you with data. Anyone can build UIs or front-end applications on top of The Graph’s data. If you wanted to build something similar to a typical Google search engine, you could do that.

We’ve had a few people experiment with building ChatGPT-like experiences on top of The Graph, piloting them to see what’s interesting and to better understand what’s going on in blockchain data. But if you’re just a typical developer building a dApp, you can use The Graph for querying blockchain data.

For example, if you think about Uniswap.org or other dApps, the data you see isn’t directly pulled from blockchains. It’s actually incredibly difficult to extract data from blockchains. So, we act as a standardized layer between an application’s front-end and the smart contracts they deploy, making it easy for them to access and use blockchain data.

What is a knowledge graph and how does it benefit Web3 applications?

Ehan: So, what is a knowledge graph and how does it benefit Web3 applications specifically?

Eva: Yeah, great question. So, as I mentioned earlier, The Graph is currently focused on expanding the problem set we’re solving. We started with the subgraph, which is very developer- and front-end-focused. It has achieved product-market fit, but we recognize there’s a larger need for how people access blockchain data. Whether you’re a developer or an analyst, it can be very difficult to work with blockchain data.

However, the vision of the Knowledge Graph extends beyond just blockchain data. When you think about the information that’s useful in your everyday life, the majority of it isn’t crypto or Web3 data. It could be something as simple as a friend texting you or your grocery list — information that isn’t captured on blockchains. The Knowledge Graph aims to go beyond Web3 data and blockchain events, which are often very transaction-driven, meaning the data only reflects events like processed transactions or approved votes. But this doesn’t capture important data about users, wallets, or behaviors.

The goal of the Knowledge Graph is to create more meaningful connections out of the data we receive from both Web3 and Web2. For instance, imagine if all your Web2 social information could somehow be connected to Web3 social apps. We want to encompass the entire spectrum of data, information, and knowledge, which includes anything from blockchain data to user-generated content like social media posts, updates on websites, or research.

Meaningful data, or “knowledge,” comes from creating connections between all of this. For example, tracking an identity and seeing everything related to that identity, whether it’s on a blockchain or not, allows us to build meaningful connections between what people are doing on-chain or in decentralized finance (DeFi). Essentially, we want to ensure that regardless of the type of data or information, you can access all of it through The Graph.

What is the role of the GRT token in The Graph network?

Ehan: Could you explain the role of the GRT token within The Graph network? How is it utilized by the ecosystem?

Eva: Yeah, great question. The GRT token was launched when the network itself was launched, and it functions as a work utility token. Basically, anyone can stake the token, which means locking it up to earn income with their token. By doing this, they contribute to the overall success of Web3.

The Graph really sees itself as a uniter of contributions and builders within Web3 because we support every chain. For example, if you’re a developer and want to build on a new chain, like Eva Chain, even if you’re unsure whether Eva Chain has a support ecosystem, The Graph likely already supports it, making it easier for you to build. The positioning of GRT is that we unite the Web3 ecosystem. By staking GRT, you help provide access to meaningful data, information, and knowledge within Web3. When you stake your GRT, you contribute to the network’s security and help developers feel more confident in relying on that data.

In terms of staking itself, you can become an indexer, which means running a node — a validator specific to The Graph that runs Graph software to index data. As an indexer, you can earn fees from customers who pay for the data you serve, along with GRT rewards from the network.

Alternatively, you could stake as a delegator, which is a less technical role with no need for hardware or software. Delegators can stake GRT through a website, and by staking on an indexer, they increase that indexer’s ability to serve queries. Staking is crucial because it enhances the network’s value by increasing the capacity of indexers, and delegators also earn fees for their contributions.

Which chains does The Graph support now?

Ehan: What chains does The Graph support now?

Eva: Yeah, so we support over 50 chains. This includes all major Layer 1s, Layer 2s, and even many of the newer non-EVM chains. The goal is to ensure that developers feel supported throughout their entire journey.

It’s still quite difficult to build in Web3 for many reasons. The choice of which chain to build on is very important because it impacts several downstream decisions, such as available developer tooling and the ecosystem surrounding that chain. We want to make sure that high-quality developers feel supported, regardless of which chain they are building on or even if they redeploy their smart contracts on another chain. The same developer tooling they are familiar with, like The Graph, should be accessible and make their development process easier.

What new data services has The Graph introduced, and how do they enhance the protocol?

Ehan: The Graph has recently introduced new data services. Could you provide insights on what these services are and how they enhance the protocol’s offerings?

Eva: Yeah, absolutely. So we just talked about chains — everything from Ethereum to Optimism, Monad, and others. We view the chain ecosystem as a diverse group of ways for developers to personalize their experience. Another way developers and users can personalize their experience with The Graph is by choosing which data services they want to build with or use.

As I mentioned earlier, we started with the subgraph, which was really our product-market fit moment. This helped Web3, and Ethereum specifically, grow by enabling high-quality tools to reach developers, hackathons, and similar spaces.

Now, we’re seeing a wider variety of user types and more data extraction methods that could be optimized for different use cases. For instance, we have a team called StreamingFast that is building substreams and Firehose. These complement subgraphs because they serve different functions. While a subgraph is an API, a substream is a raw stream of data. In some cases, such as applications requiring real-time data, developers might need streaming data due to the nature of their product. In these scenarios, they could use substreams alongside subgraphs.

We also have something called “substream-powered subgraphs,” which combine both substreams and subgraphs. This significantly increases the performance and efficiency of syncing a subgraph. So, we can cross-utilize different tools within The Graph to fit various needs. Additionally, we’re exploring other ways developers want to access data that goes beyond subgraphs and substreams. This is where the Knowledge Graph comes in, recognizing that different dApps handle various types of data — public, private, personal, on-chain — and have different needs for public versus private data. The Knowledge Graph aims to be a new data service that goes beyond Web3 data by integrating more meaningful information from Web2 and connecting data nodes between Web3 and Web2 for a richer data experience.

Beyond the Knowledge Graph and developer-focused use cases, we’re also thinking about other users who need data from Web3. When The Graph started, Web3 wasn’t really a thing yet — it still has a way to go. At that time, the focus was on developers building smart contracts and applications.

Now, we’re seeing a lot more analysts, business people, and even internal business intelligence. So, the users go beyond just developers and include data scientists, analysts, and trend watchers. We’re expanding our use cases to support these users, including those from a front-end or data science background who might not want to use GraphQL or Rust. We’re also making sure that non-technical or non-analytical users can interact with The Graph in a way that makes sense to them, providing valuable information.

Our data services expansion is about ensuring that all types of users can access The Graph with various tools in their toolkit to choose from.

How do the core development teams of The Graph operate and collaborate?

Ehan: The Graph’s ecosystem includes core development teams. Could you explain how these teams operate and collaborate to drive decentralization?

Eva: Yeah, we’ve taken a lot of inspiration from the Ethereum community and other Web3 communities. I think the Ethereum community is the most mature example of this — where empowering the community through contributions makes everything more successful. The challenge with having a centralized team, or just one team, is that fewer people care about what you’re doing. Most companies, unless people own stock, don’t attract that much attention.

In contrast, with a decentralized network and ecosystem, people care at different levels based on their involvement and contributions. Crypto networks are built to be positive-sum, meaning they create value for the entire ecosystem rather than just capturing revenue for one company.

This psychological shift is a big distinction between how Web3 operates versus Web2, and it’s vital to our philosophy. When The Graph Network launched, we had the original team and the foundation. However, we quickly realized that there were many ambitious goals on our roadmap. Scaling one or two teams wasn’t enough because we needed a wide range of expertise. Sometimes it’s easier to bring in talent or contributors by launching an idea or an RFP (request for proposals), where an entire team can get excited about solving a problem, rather than hiring individuals one by one.

So, we adopted a multi-core developer grants model, with multiple core development teams. We found that having these different teams collaborate on the same problem was much more beneficial than competing or working in silos. When teams come together to share their research and development, it creates a more productive environment.

Of course, we face coordination challenges, just like Ethereum does. Coordinating in public and among many teams is not easy, but we’ve built a robust grants program and a strong community. We hold monthly core developer calls and bi-weekly indexer calls, where anyone with questions about indexer updates can join.

Overall, I’d say this decentralized approach is positive-sum for everyone building on The Graph, as well as for the ecosystem. It allows diverse groups with different expertise to collaborate, increasing the chances of success for the network as a whole. Instead of focusing on a narrow business model or user type, we’re ensuring that the entire community is aligned with the vision and is actively contributing.

How is The Graph integrating AI, and what impact might this have on decentralized data?

Ehan: There has been much excitement surrounding The Graph’s involvement with AI. Could you explain how The Graph is integrating AI and what impact it might have on decentralized data?

Eva: Yeah, it’s super exciting. Earlier this year, I believe it was in Q1, we released a white paper outlining some of the opportunities for The Graph with AI. We already leverage AI internally for some modeling and community services, but the paper focused on how The Graph can offer AI services more broadly. We identified two main areas of opportunity: inference and agent services.

Overall, the assessment was that The Graph already has an interesting network flow and incentive structure, which makes running or training an AI model only slightly additive to the work an indexer already does. Indexers are already syncing nodes, caching data for queries, and doing much of the groundwork necessary for training AI models. This positioning is unique because, while many teams are building their entire existence around AI, for us, AI is just one part of a larger suite of services. The idea is that anyone coming to The Graph should be able to meet all their data needs, including AI.

After releasing the paper, we started some experiments, but we’re also recognizing that the market isn’t as far along as some of the supply in the AI space. There are many AI-blockchain projects and decentralized AI initiatives, and we’re taking our time figuring out the best use cases and implementations. Since we already have other data services in place, we’re thinking about how AI can support those services — especially the Knowledge Graph.

It’s still early in this journey, but we’ve seen demand for accessing blockchain data in a modular, AI-enhanced way. What we’re still trying to understand is what the long-term demand will look like for Web3-AI intersections, not just for traditional AI use cases like we see flourishing in both the West and the East. We’re focusing on how AI can uniquely serve Web3 and decentralized data needs.

Are there any recent developments or announcements about The Graph that excite you?

Ehan: So besides AI, are there any other recent announcements or developments that have you excited about the future of The Graph?

Eva: Yeah, we haven’t made any major announcements recently because, honestly, we’ve just been heads down working. But we’re cooking up a few interesting things. As I mentioned earlier, we’re starting to approach developers as users in a more holistic way. Instead of just focusing on the API or specific layers of data access that developers need, we’re thinking about offering more comprehensive solutions, like a streaming extraction framework. We already have great tools for developers, but we’re looking beyond that.

One of the main issues we see — along with many other Layer 2 blockchain and protocol teams — is that the Web3 developer ecosystem is still too small. For those who have been in the space for a while, it’s obvious that there’s been growth, but compared to the number of Web2 developers, and considering the number of developers we need globally to build out the Web3 vision, the talent pool is still too limited.

A lot of our thinking now is centered around solving this issue. Previously, we focused on helping the developers who were already here — providing them with the data and tools they needed to build applications. That’s how the subgraph came about and why The Graph exists.

Now, we’re reframing the problem: How do we get more developers into Web3? If you talk to Web2 developers, they’ve heard of crypto, but many aren’t making the switch. They’re staying in their day jobs, not joining the crypto space, not participating in hackathons, and not learning Solidity on the side. There’s a psychological barrier here that’s preventing our entire Web3 ecosystem from reaching its full potential.

The Graph is really interested in solving this problem because, for us, the subgraph is just one small part of a bigger challenge — how to make it easy for anyone to build on blockchains, build in Web3, and create decentralized, censorship-resistant, and meaningful applications. We want to start building more tools and infrastructure that address the entire journey of a developer, beyond just hosting and data access.

What are the best ways for people to get involved with The Graph?

Ehan: For those who want to contribute to The Graph, what are the best ways to get involved with the project?

Eva: Great question. I would say the first step is to head to thegraph.com, where you can explore all the different ways to get involved, depending on whether you’re a developer or not. If you are a developer, the docs and products are a great place to start. We have resources for all 50 chains, including subgraphs, substreams, and Firehose, so you can access and build on these chains.

If you’re looking to contribute to the network itself, you can explore the indexer or delegator roles through thegraph.com. There are multiple user interfaces across the ecosystem where you can delegate, and The Graph’s website is one of them.

If you’re interested in getting more involved in the community, we have a grants program and community managers who can help guide you. We’re also very close to relaunching our Advocates Program, which we paused over the summer for a refresh. We’re excited to share more information on that closer to the end of the year.

For non-technical users, there are still plenty of ways to get involved in the ecosystem. You could volunteer, help at booths during hackathons or events, or join community calls. We’re always creating new opportunities for people to participate, depending on their skill level. This could include testing new features, curating information, and helping with the Knowledge Graph and other data services we’re working on. We expect a lot of exciting community activity soon as these new developments roll out.

What is Horizon, and how does it compare to other similar initiatives?

Ehan: Can you explain Horizon? How would you compare this initiative to others in the market?

Eva: Yeah, Horizon is essentially version 2 of The Graph protocol. We’ve learned quite a bit from our experiences, including what has worked and what hasn’t for indexers, what’s capital-efficient, and where there are opportunities for improvement. We’ve noticed a lot of potential for more modular ways in which people want to interact with the protocol, and Horizon is our solution to meet those evolving needs.

Horizon is designed to fulfill the desires of different types of data consumers and data providers. For example, if you’re a data provider and you want to build a new data service, perhaps with a unique API that differs from existing ones, we want to make it possible for you to serve that data service on The Graph. Essentially, you can think of The Graph as a marketplace for data services.

Up until now, core developers — those of us working closely on the protocol day-to-day — have been the ones building out these data services. But we believe that the world should have access to these tools, and there are many ways people want to consume data and information. Indexers, too, have their own agencies and should be able to serve any kind of data service they choose. Horizon is about enabling that vision and making it a reality for the broader ecosystem.

What concerns do you have about the direction of Web3, and how can the community improve?

Ehan: As someone deeply involved in Web3, are there any concerns you have about the direction the space is heading? Where do you think the Web3 community can improve?

Eva: This is a tough question. I think the concept of “growing the pie” that I mentioned earlier is really the most important thing we should be focusing on. There’s a lot of excitement around the impact of things like ETFs and the idea that more people will have financial access to Ethereum and Bitcoin. It’s definitely a milestone, but it hasn’t been as impactful as we might have expected, at least in terms of reaching regular people — the ones we want to empower in Web3 by giving them more control over their lives, money, and data. These aren’t necessarily the people who were struggling to access Bitcoin and Ethereum before the ETF came along.

I think there’s much more we can do in terms of getting real people involved in Web3. And it’s not just about having late-night conversations where you’re trying to convince your friend why Ethereum is the best thing ever (although those conversations do happen and are how many of us got here).

What we need now is more focus on mature tooling and access points for people who are already highly skilled, such as those from banking, engineering, or the Web2 AI world, who are ready to transition to Web3. We need to take an honest look at ourselves and ask: What does a high-quality contributor need to feel safe and have a meaningful role in this ecosystem if they are going to dedicate their career to building here?

That could mean better developer tools, more comprehensive documentation, and guides. We might even need to rethink how we’re building some of our apps. For example, it’s unfortunate that even today, when you open MetaMask or other apps, you still have to switch networks or bridge tokens across networks. These kinds of hurdles make it difficult for people to engage. Imagine telling a Web2 developer, “Come to Ethereum, buy this token, but then you’ll have to bridge it over here.” It’s confusing, and we lose people because of that.

So, I think the most important thing we can do right now is to focus on ways to grow the pie, in whatever area of Web3 we’re most passionate about. That’s what will make the biggest difference in pushing the space forward.

How can Web3 and decentralized data help address misinformation and information bubbles?

Ehan: We’re heading into another election cycle in the US. When Donald Trump was first elected, many people were taken by surprise, in part due to information bubbles on Web2 platforms. How do you think Web3, particularly with decentralized data, can help address these issues and combat misinformation?

Eva: This is a really great question, and I think it’s a difficult one, especially because I’m not American. While I’m following the election, I don’t have the same visceral feeling of what the impact of this kind of election has had on my life. But I do think we are at a critical time. This year, there are over 30 federal elections globally, and more than 100 elections worldwide. It’s been a very important year for democracy and for people being vocal about the issues they care about.

I think it’s crucial that people recognize the trade-offs when they vote, whether it’s in the US or elsewhere. We’re at a moment where technologies like AI, crypto, and others that empower individuals are becoming better and more accessible. At the same time, we’re seeing a resurgence of authoritarian regimes globally, after what felt like decades of more freedom-focused ideologies. Some countries are reverting to control-focused governance, which, in a way, makes sense — when people gain more freedom, those in power may try to regain control.

When voting, people should ask themselves: What is most important for their livelihood and their children’s future? It’s not about being a single-issue voter, but rather having a realistic perspective on past elections and regimes, and thinking about what kind of world you want moving forward. We’re at a precipice of technological change, and it’s important to ensure that the candidates we elect won’t hinder the future we’re collectively working towards.

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