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Ivan Zhao is the co-founder and CEO of Notion. Ivan shares the untold story of Notion, from nearly running out of database space during Covid to finding product-market fit after several “lost years,” and the hard-won lessons along the way.

What you’ll learn:

1. Why you sometimes need to “hide your vision” behind something people actually want—what Ivan calls “sugar-coating the broccoli”

2. How Ivan and his co-founder persevered through multiple product resets and complete code rewrites

3. Why Notion prioritized systems over headcount, keeping the team small and focused even at scale

4. Why Ivan believes in craft and values as the foundation for product development, balancing technical excellence with aesthetic sensibility

5. The surprising story of how Notion nearly collapsed during Covid when their single database almost ran out of space with only weeks to spare

6. Community-led growth tactics

7. Ivan’s unique journey from a small town in China

8. Much more

Find the transcript at: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/inside-notion-ivan-zhao

Some takeaways:

1. Don’t be afraid to start over: Notion’s early years were extremely challenging. Ivan and his co-founder made the drastic decision to scrap everything, fire their small team, and rebuild from scratch. This bold pivot (including a move to Kyoto to code 18 hours a day) was risky but ultimately turned Notion into the product that fit the market.

2. Build a great product above all else: Rather than spending energy on early publicity or fundraising, focus on making something people truly love. “If you build something great, the network will come and investors will say yes,” Ivan explains, highlighting that Notion’s team devoted themselves to product over hype in the early days.

3. Notion’s first version flopped—it was buggy and too complex.

4. Build for the user, not just yourself—Ivan admits the original product was “what I wanted” rather than what users actually needed. The reboot succeeded because they incorporated user feedback and simplified the experience. Lesson: Solve real user problems, and be willing to rethink your assumptions.

5. Community is a competitive advantage: Notion cultivated a passionate community as its not-so-secret weapon. Early on, Ivan personally replied to users’ tweets and emails, showing there’s a human behind the product. By empowering power users (through programs like Notion Ambassadors and community events), Notion created an army of evangelists who spread the word and even built local communities around the world.

6. Stay true to your vision (but stay flexible): Even as Notion struggled, Ivan’s core vision never changed: “to give anyone the ability to customize software to their needs.” They drew inspiration from early computer pioneers and stuck to the mission of an all-in-one tool. But they stayed flexible on implementation, completely overhauling the tech and UX when it wasn’t working. Key insight: Hold your vision, but pivot on tactics when needed.

7. Ivan admits their first product was too confusing: “People don’t want to build apps.” The big lesson was to solve a real user need. Notion’s team pivoted to a more familiar concept (notes and docs with a twist), essentially “building for the world, not just for ourselves.” This product-market-fit insight—make it simple, then gradually introduce advanced features—was the game changer that set Notion on a growth trajectory.

8. Ivan’s advice for entrepreneurs struggling with direction: “Reset and start again if you need to.” He believes that progress often comes from better abstractions and learning from past mistakes.

9. Stay lean to move fast. Notion intentionally kept its team small and scrappy. Remarkably, they hit unicorn status with just a few dozen employees. This lean-team approach meant faster decisions, a tight-knit culture, and the ability to iterate quickly without heavy process.

10. Notion took an unconventional path of delaying monetization on certain features and offering generous free plans early on. This wasn’t because they didn’t care about revenue but because they cared more about building trust and providing value to users. By not nickel-and-diming their community and only charging when the product truly delivered enough value, Notion created goodwill that translated into loyalty and word of mouth. The result? When they did start monetizing team plans and upsells, users were more than willing to pay, and many had already become advocates.

11. When building horizontal products:

    1. Start with a clear, compelling use case that gives you broad distribution (like docs/notes)

    2. Hide your broader vision inside something people already understand and want

    3. Balance between “Lego bricks” (foundational capabilities) and “Lego boxes” (packaged solutions)

    4. Recognize that different segments need different levels of assembly and guidance

Where to find Ivan Zhao:

• X: https://x.com/ivanhzhao

• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ivanhzhao/

In this episode, we cover:

(00:00) Introduction to Ivan Zhao

(04:41) Ivan’s early life and education

(07:46) Discovering the vision for Notion

(10:49) The lost years of Notion

(13:56) Rebuilding and perseverance

(17:14) Layoffs and company morale

(18:53) Advice for startup founders

(25:08) Product-market fit

(29:56) Staying lean and efficient

(34:27) Creating a unique office culture

(37:20) Craft and values: the foundation of Notion’s philosophy

(38:44) Navigating tradeoffs in product and business building

(41:24) Leadership and personal growth

(49:11) Challenges and crises: lessons from Notion’s journey

(51:08) Building horizontal software: joys and pains

(01:02:40) Philosophy of tools and human potential

(01:06:17) Lightning round and final thoughts

Referenced:

• Ürümqi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi

• Notion: https://www.notion.com/

• SpongeBob SquarePants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpongeBob_SquarePants

• Augmenting Human Intellect: https://web.stanford.edu/class/history34q/readings/Engelbart/Engelbart_AugmentIntellect.html

• Alan Kay: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Kay

• Ted Nelson: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Nelson

• Steve Jobs on Why Computers Are Like a Bicycle for the Mind (1990): https://www.themarginalian.org/2011/12/21/steve-jobs-bicycle-for-the-mind-1990/

• Xerox Alto: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_Alto

• React: https://react.dev/

• Simon Last on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/simon-last-41404140/

• Magna-Tiles: https://www.magnatiles.com/

• Design on a deadline: How Notion pulled itself back from the brink of failure: https://www.figma.com/blog/design-on-a-deadline-how-notion-pulled-itself-back-from-the-brink-of-failure/

• Bryan Johnson on X: https://x.com/bryan_johnson

• Tobi Lütke’s leadership playbook: Playing infinite games, operating from first principles, and maximizing human potential (founder and CEO of Shopify): https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/tobi-lutkes-leadership-playbook

• Smalltalk: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smalltalk#:

• Lisp: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_(programming_language)

• DeepSeek: https://www.deepseek.com/

• Shana Fisher: https://www.crunchbase.com/person/shana-fisher

• LAMY 2000 fountain pens: https://www.jetpens.com/LAMY-2000-Fountain-Pens/

• Macintosh 128K: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_128K

• Toshiba rice cooker: https://www.toshiba-lifestyle.com/us/cooking-appliances/rice-cooker

• Transistor radio: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transistor_radio

• Jira: https://www.atlassian.com/software/jira

• Salesforce: https://www.salesforce.com/

• HubSpot: https://www.hubspot.com/

• Zendesk: https://www.zendesk.com/

• Misattributed McLuhan quote: https://mcluhangalaxy.wordpress.com/2013/04/01/we-shape-our-tools-and-thereafter-our-tools-shape-us/

• Phin Barnes on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/phineasbarnes/

• Hacker News: https://news.ycombinator.com/

• Pablo Picasso quote: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/629531-good-artists-copy-great-artists-steal#:~

• Connections with James Burke on Prime Video: https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/amzn1.dv.gti.484e32c5-60bd-4493-a800-e44fd0940312

• The Enneagram Institute: https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/

Recommended book:

• The Romance of the Three Kingdoms: https://www.amazon.com/Romance-Three-Kingdoms-Luo-Guanzhong/dp/024133277X

Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.

Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.